Alan Hollinghurst: The Stranger's Child.

The Stranger’s Child: Hollinghurst, 25^th October 2012; Flower & Firkin.

Apols: Rob

Present: Chris B, Chris W, Mark T, Mark Th, Neil, Ras,  Richard, Steve,

An excellent evening, and (or because of?) a real marmite book.  We had 2 people who absolutely loved the book (Mark Th, Steve); 3 people who absolutely hated it (Ras, Rob, Mark T); and a few who liked /disliked it at various levels. Richard and Chris had not yet finished the book (both had completed 3 out of the 5 sections) but both were enjoying the book and were committed to finishing it, for that reason.

There was £23 left in the kitty; in the absence of Rob (whose book we are discussing in November) Richard agreed to look after it and bring it to the next meeting.

The ‘positive group’ had many insights into the book, and many examples of how sublime it was (see below), seeing it as a rather brilliant examination, or reputation, celebrity, biographical reconstruction, and a fascinating exposition of cultural mores, sexual secrets, interesting characters, and detailed analyses of conversations.

The ‘negative group’ found it very difficult to get into and to sustain interest. 

Scores were:

Mark Th: 8.4

Steve: 8.0

Chris B: (undecided, as not yet complete – between 6.9 and 7.2)

Neil: 6.8

Chris W: 3.5

Mark T: 2.7

Rob: 2.5

Ras: 2.0

Richard will score when he has completed the book.

Mark Th really enjoyed the book.  He felt that there was no major plot; instead, a detailed examination of five slices of life at 20 year intervals was presented. The characters differ in depth and interest (as people do in real life), and those that re-appear differ over time, again as in real life; some become successful, some do not, some do and then lose their allure, etc.  Mark felt that a key theme of the book was how history gets distorted by people looking back and trying to understand, using only what is available to them – their subject’s diaries, photos, letters – even the buildings that they lived in; historians and biographers examine the past using only these clues about that past that are available to them (because that is all that is left) – as opposed to us, in this book, where we are actually seeing what happened at key moments). Hence we know more about the reality of these people’s lives than do the characters in the book – we know what ACTUALLY happened, versus what is reconstructed from these letters, interviews, diaries, etc.  Mark Th’s summary was that he really enjoyed it, finding it a very evocative and moving book; even better than Line of Beauty.

Steve said “I LOVED it: an appealing book, inviting to read” Agreeing with lots of what Mark Th had already said, Steve though it a well-woven story moving throughout the 20^th century, focusing on reputation, and on how we build reputations – and how they can collapse and change; and how books can change people’s reputations, even when the ‘evidence’ that they use to do this is simply build on hearsay. Steve delighted in how, time and again, little references and reflections showed how propel are in conversation, dialogue, gesture – his attention to detail and ability to demonstrate it was all fantastic.  Steve felt that the only negative for him was that there was no plot, and that the book slightly ran out of steam. But he revelled in the style of it, the skill, even the ability to write plausible 2^nd rate poetry.  He felt involved in the emotional ups and downs, and understood George’s teenage ambiguity and later denial of Cecil [NB – a Christ and his disciple-like interaction?]

At the other end of the spectrum, Rob said (by e-mail) that “I found it somewhat difficult to get into in the early stages. Despite the sleeve notes waxing lyrical on Hollinghurst's writing style, I found it somewhat stodgy - slow moving and failing to contain content that grabbed me in any significant way. My hopes for the book began to increase as I got towards the end of what I then found was part one of a multi-part book. I was beginning to get into the characters, I thought some of them were starting to show signs of interesting depth (e.g. Cecil and the young Daphne), and saw the beginnings of an interesting plot. Then Hollingsworth decided to scrap that slightly promising start and begin again with what was effectively a new set of characters. Those who were the same in name appeared to have changed significantly in personality (OK, they were several years older, but you'd expect some continuity. Daphne's mother for example had completely lost the spark that made her slightly interesting in the first part), and there were so many new ones (several superfluous to requirements as far as I could work out) that I had difficulty in following what was going on and each person's purpose in the (alleged) storyline. More detrimental than this was that the writing style became even worse. Laboured and pedestrian are two words that spring to mind. Far too much of "he said ........... she said ........", with tedious conversation. I suppose it could be argued that he was trying to use writing style to convey the stilted, formal atmosphere of the gathering. Well he certainly succeeded there. If I'd have been present I'd have wanted to flee the house party at the first available opportunity in order to find something interesting to do with my life. I'm now just towards the end of this second phase of the book and on being faced with the possibility of picking it up again last night found myself giving up the will to live - so didn't. I have better things to do with my life than read this turgid dross. It will not be finished. Trying to find things in its favour - well it did create a reasonably good picture of the surroundings and the period - but that was probably because he used so many repetitive descriptions of the same things. No, that's it - can't think of anything else positive. A 2.3 from me - which looking at my scores puts it almost on a par with "Lights Out'. Yes, it was that bad.”

Ras felt that he “agreed with Rob, word for word, except for his score, which was too generous.  It was boring and didn’t grab me. The only interesting thing was the mention of the Cambridge versus Oxford versions of gay sex, and I thought that something interesting might come out here – but he didn’t even do the gay sex justice.”  

[Neil then looked up these arcane sexual behaviours on the www, and found that there were indeed Oxford and Cambridge methods (which differed in whether or not penetration actually occurs – Oxford being thrusting in between one’s lover’s thighs without actual penetration, whereas Cambridge ‘went all the way’) and also that the shape of punts in Oxford and Cambridge bear some relation to the male and female sexual positions – hence “punting from the Cambridge end”!]

Mark T was also one of the ‘haters’ – stating that “I hated it – I only got through the 1^st section; I couldn’t get on with it – I didn’t like the people, I didn’t like the style – I didn’t like any of it!”

Chris W was an ‘in-betweener’. He said that he had managed to get through about 1/5 of the book, but suggested that one needed to read this book at a rate of at least 50 pages a time to get into it, and as he only had 10 minutes per night, it became too difficult – he had difficulties in recalling individuals’ names. Chis said: “I enjoyed (kind of) the first section: it was characteristic of life at that time; the language was great. But when I got to the second section, I didn’t want to find out all about a completely new set of characters – I found that I wasn’t enjoying it (although if I had had larger chunks of time ….). But I didn’t really get into it, didn’t really like it; if I had been gripped, I would have forced myself to read on; but I prefer events and plot, and there were few events and almost no plot in this book.”

Neil said that, overall, he quite enjoyed it, and certainly preferred it to the Line of Beauty, finding it more accessible. He also saw many similarities, seeing that Hollinghurst enjoys writing big ‘set pieces’ – in LoB, the big party in the south of France and the other one in the London home with Maggie Th attending; and here the 70 the birthday party.  Neil said that “at risk of sounding homophobic” he found “ the preoccupation with gay sex and being gay” a bit much.  On the other hand, he felt that there were many layers of interest –

·         at one level, it was a sociological study of attitudes towards homosexuality over the century, from Cecil and George in 1913, through the 1920s, through the 60s and the time of legalisation, up to the present day.

·         at another level, it was about the ebb and flow of people’s stars over time – not that THEY changed that much, but the times changed, and hence the person is seen differently.

·         The book contained vivid studies of people and situations, such as the old lady in the bungalow, all messy and cluttered; and the biographer wanting to ask detailed questions over very delicate subject matters.  

·         The book was not simply about how people change, but how iconic buildings change as well – Cecil’s house was also a character in the book. [This led to an interesting discussion on St Pancras and the debate in the 1960s about destroying it; and to how modernisation in the 1920s was about covering up these interesting features; and also how this reminded people of the Evelyn Waugh book where that house, too, was being modernised in a similar way.]

 Neil though that it was slow – but “I got to the stage where, after the first 2 sections, I was looking forward to sections 3-4-5, to figuring out who and how (ie who these people were – ‘Oh, that is who Mrs Jacobs is …’ and how people and events would fit together.”  Overall, Neil thought that it contained very interesting bits, without it being a ‘cracking yarn’. – “I liked it, but it was not a gripping book”.

Chris B said that he was getting towards the end of section 3, and that it had “really warmed up for me – the first section was hard to get going, but I am really enjoying it now”. He found the setting on gay relationships in different eras was especially interesting – “I liked that – it is so rare, and to see how difficult it was.” On the other hand, the book was rather one-dimensional about social status, and it was irritating how, every time someone speaks, Hollinghurst feels the need to comment –t here was a commentary on every bit of dialogue, which then became overdone and formulaic. However Chris said that was very much enjoying it, and a lot of it (the Oxbridge stuff, and ?dealing with celebrity? resonated with his own experience. However, on one dimension Chris rated the book down (and hence his possible 6.9 vs 7.2) – which was that he felt that the book was not telling us very much – what was its ‘take-away message’? Chris felt that the book was not telling us anything of social or philosophical importance.

Mark Th suggested 4 possible books for December:

·         Hare with the Amber Eyes

·         All Quiet on the Western Front

·         Woman in White

·         Will Self – Walking to Hollywood.

People gave their views whilst (of course!) impressing on Mark that the choice was completely his!

Richard Velleman

October 2012

Before I go to Sleep – SJ Watson

These are the notes from the meeting at the Devonshire Arms,

27^th September 2012.

Eight present

A good evening and lots of good discussion prompted by this book, on the themes of how important memory is to our lives. Some members have experience of friends and relatives with dementia, and this  prompted lots of moral and ethical questions, such as what makes a person, and what are we without memory? Also if people cannot remember who they are, are they still human?  The majority present liked the book, although some more than others. No one disliked the book (although the absent member did not like it at all).

Rob thought it was a pretty good book and very gripping, although he read this on his new kindle which was challenging to him. He thought the memory aspect was intriguing, although some bits did not hold together. He noted that it was a first novel and the quality of the writing was simple. Rob felt that the research carried out for the book was limited. For example, he felt that Christine could not have got out of the care home in the way she did.

Steve read the book really quickly, and thought the translation was quite acceptable. He found it an easy read in a straightforward way, and on reflection found this slightly disappointing. He liked the way that Christine’s day was gradually built up over the chapters, but felt that the characters were a bit colourless. 

Richard thought the book was written in two bits (first 2/3 and last 1/3). He really enjoyed the fist 2/3, and thought it a very interesting theme. He liked the memory aspect and talked at length how important this is, and felt this bit was written well.  But Richard realised straight away that Ben was bad, and he felt the ending was poor and totally implausible.  What really annoyed Richard immensely was the statement on the cover that this was the crime thriller of the year.

Neil  was less convinced, and was certain that the writer was female. He felt much happier, however,  when he was corrected that the writer was male. He thought too much was made of the writer’s first book, and lots of the writing annoyed him. He was not convinced about the practicalities of how Christine wrote her diary, and how she concealed this from her ‘husband’. But he felt that the writer drew out the tension well but like Richard thought the ending was implausible, and had many drawbacks.

Chris B had read the book a long while ago, and this was his second read (although he read it again 4 months ago, so had forgotten some of the detail).  He, with his added insight to the book, felt that Christine should not have remembered things she did, and how did she intuitively knew how everyday things worked?  He felt at the beginning that something was wrong with the husband. The class issues really annoyed him, but on balance a good story with a hopeful ending.

Chris W enjoyed it and could not put it down, and it was a great holiday read. He particularly liked the description of the really boring home. Raz thought it was a good idea for a story, and found it easy to read, but thought it was far too long, about 30% too long! He thought it was too predictable but admitted it had a little bit of tension. He thought it was Okish.

Mark T enjoyed the book very much, although it took him a while to get into it. What grabbed his attention was when Christine wrote in her diary “don’t trust Ben” .He felt the tension building from them on. He did not realise what was going on for a while, although realised something was not quite right early on. For example he could not accept that Ben had been doing this for years and years. He thought the ending was very tense and thrilling, and worried what was going to happen next. He was surprised that Ben (Mike) could suddenly be so violent after seemingly so patient in the first part of the book.

Although Mark Th was not present, he did read the book, and commented by email afterwards. He enjoyed the first 100 pages, but felt it had been done better on film before (Mnemonic) or non-fiction by Oliver Sacks. He became very frustrated by the narrow bounds the story required and very bored by the silliness of her re-reading every day so that by the time the plot twist came – a bit like the Apothecary’s Daughter.

Before I Go to Sleep by S J Watson

Sorry, I seem to be here before the official chronicler!

Having read this book twice, I really like it. It is not perfect. There are some inconsistencies. Christine seems to know things you would not expect her to if she cannot remember things from day to day, but they are mainly how life works rather than her personal history, so do not detract from the story. And it is slightly unbelievable that she has apparently never tried to write a journal before, had had no contact from husband and son for so long and had a doctor who did not talk to her husband.

I like the way you are drawn into her world and her experience of it. How she feels when she wakes up, how she makes sense of her relationship with her husband, her feelings for her doctor and he son and the emerging clashes with what you expect which gradually makes you think all is not right (though I did feel a bit uncomfortable that this was mainly highlighted by differences in taste that felt classist). That is what makes the book so compelling. Who are we without memory? Many of us are destined for this future and will not ever be able to hold the truth, even as long as Christine does. She wants to know who she is.  Someone with dementia probably does not.

The last part, even on second reading is full of tension, a thriller whose end you don't know until close to the finish. It makes a good and hopeful ending to a compelling read. 

Chris B

The Sense of an Ending Julian Barnes

Meeting at: Forester & Flower, August 30th
Well, as a last-minute appearance by Chris W boosted the numbers for the evening from 4 to 5 and Mark Th has already read the book too, we felt the meeting deserved a write up, although Chris B clearly got impatient with me to do this and went ahead and put his notes up here anyway, so my unreliable re-telling of his comments won't be required at least.

Four of us chose the book by mutual consent having agreed that despite there being a small number of us available to meet in August we would meet up anyway. Sense of an Ending is a relatively short book at under 200 pages, but was nevertheless winner of the 2011 Man Booker prize, something a couple of people found surprising. Despite this most of us there seemed to have enjoyed it to a greater or lesser degree.

I found the easy style of the book engaging and it was a nice fluid read, although I hadn't found the back cover synopsis that appealing.  I found it to be an excellent example of storytelling even if, similar to Chris B, I did find the plot structure lacked some credibility at times and it seemed to me that certain elements were mere plot devices which were somewhat contrived, but were nevertheless extremely well used once established.  So I agreed with Chris B that the reasons for Adrian's suicide were questionable and for Veronica's obtusity, but I put them down to being essential for the plot to work.  I found some of the scenarios entertaining and so convincingly described that they became very vivid in my minds eye, and despite being somewhat the anti-hero, I found myself empathising with our protagonist.

Mark T loved the book and also liked the central character a good deal.  The book raised lots of questions for him, none more so than what relationship Adrian or Tony had with Veronica's mother. Overall he found it clever and enjoyable.

Richard found the book to be one of two halves to borrow a footballing pharse. He really enjoyed the first half with such a detailed account of someone's life but was then frustrated that given how well that had been done we were denied any detailed explanation of what had happened in the intervening 30-odd years.  It had echoes for Richard of Chesil Beach and even the Magus (which Mark T also related to) and he was impressed by Barnes' understanding of the way memory works and how memories change over time with sometimes startling impact.(Could this be a theme we come back to as memory plays such a key part in our next two books as well?).

Chris W had not long started reading the book and had some way to go, but was not put off by the fact that we had in effect told him the key elements of what was going to happen later on.  He found Barnes' style to be very perceptive of people and very evocative of the era described in the first part and which he was nearly old enough to remember himself.  He described the prose as "meaty" and often found himself re-reading passages because he took pleasure from how they had been written.

Chris B has added his own comments:

What a suitable book for me and perhaps all of us. The thoughts and adventures of a man in his early sixties  He looks back on his life as a schoolboy, student, worker, lover, husband, father, divorcee and pensioner.  And his student relationships come back to haunt him.

I liked the chatty style and the wry observations on life and relationships, on growing up and on coming to the other end of one's life. The detective story element is intriguing and Tony's differing interpretation of events as he discovers more about the past is very true to life. It is clever to make interesting a character who by his own admission is not the most exciting in the world. Things I didn't like were not being clear by the end on why Adrian (senior) had committed suicide: because he came to a logical conclusion that life wasn't worth living (not just for him but for anyone) or because he had made his girlfriend's mother pregnant? Or Tony's horrible letter? Or all three? Why should it have been so terrible for the latter to have happened? And why is Veronica so obtuse? We know she can behave unexpectedly and is a woman of more mystery than clarity, but why would she not have explained some of the history to Tony, even if she had done so with anger and grief? It makes an interesting personal detective story but seems a bit far fetched. Also, if the main character is 60, I find it odd he is already planning for his own death. But maybe that is just me denying the advance of age.

Though I really liked the reflections on life at and from the perspective of 60, in the end, I found this rather a slight book. So I am not sure why it won the prize. I give it a score of 6.2. 

We know that Mark TH has read the book so we would welcome his comments on it and indeed if others want to read this it is only a short affair so if time allows we can then give it a score reflective of the whole group.

The evening continued with a discussion that ranged from how the authorities are able to study patterns of drug use by analysing household waste water for entire geographical areas, or by analysing individual hairs for individual people, to whether or not the group should start meeting earlier to allow more time for such leisurely chat. Indeed other rather controversial suggestions were brought up as to whether or not meetings could not only start earlier in future, but might even include food and eating.  I shall leave the co-ordination of such radical ideas to our esteemed chairman once he returns from his holiday, but first step might be to see if we could bring forward the meeting time to 8pm or earlier? Finally the kitty was emptied on the evening so there is none to carry forward.

Happy Reading!  Neil

The White Woman on The Green Bicycle - July 2012

The Hare and Hounds, Lansdown.  Apologies from both Chris’s and Mark TH.

Mark TH’s email earlier in the day had suggested that possibly we might be dealing with a Marmite book here and he was definitely a hater not a lover, but as it turned out it was more of a peanut butter book where most people quite liked it to some degree or other while one person clearly had a very definite allergy!

Neil set out the stall with the fact that he was pleasantly surprised by the format of the book which he hadn’t expected, but the fact that the first third was the last part of the story chronologically, followed by three sections which take you back over the preceding 40 years worked well for him.  There was plenty going on in that first section with a reasonably shocking conclusion, and then the next sections did a good job of explaining why things in the first section might have happened. He was absorbed by the characters, although it was not necessarily straight forward as to how you felt about them, and he got a real sense of the place and the atmosphere, while always happy to learn a little about an episode in history that he was previously ignorant about.

He was also particularly interested in the fact that much of this was about the feelings of an ex-pat trailing partner, something a friend of his coaches people on and he felt great empathy with Sabine’s feelings of being trapped on the island.

As the floor opened up, a number of these themes were explored further with other parts being chipped in as well. 

A number of people found the ex-pat nature of the book appealing either because they had spent time as ex-pats (Chris W, Ras) or because they knew and had visited people in that situation (Mark T, Chris B, Neil). Mark T also enjoyed the passion in the book, both because the main characters were “always at it” but also because the population of the island were passionate about their freedom and independence.

Rob found it enjoyable, the characters interesting, the story of independence worthwhile, but did feel he wanted to hear more from George’s perspective and also that one or two episodes in the book lacked credibility, such as the mad dash to catch the cruise ship.

Richard was the biggest detractor on the night having had high expectations of the book after a positive review from wife Gill.  As part of book club lore it is well known that Richard must feel able to empathise with characters in order to enjoy reading about them and he found Sabine in particular to be irritating, facile and pathetic. He also wanted to get to know George better. However, he did enjoy many of the descriptive pieces in the book and found the relating of the drinking culture, the first shopping trip, and the threatening looks from locals to be especially well done.  He was also appalled at the level of domestic violence visited upon George by Sabine, although several others felt he probably got no more than he deserved for his poor behavior towards her.

Ras could also relate to the shopping trip episode.  To a lesser extent than Richard he also felt Sabine could have done a better job of trying to adapt (clearly she wouldn’t have made a very good naval wife  - my comment not Ras’s !) and in an unprecedented move he agreed with Rob that the failed attempt to catch the boat off the island rang a bit hollow.  Nevertheless he enjoyed reading about the island and the people and found the story raised feelings of frustration about peoples’ apologetic attitude towards British colonialism when this book illustrated another example of where the independent rule often had the effect of making conditions worse, for a time at least. This instigated a healthy debate on the subject.

Steve was reluctant to say too much on the evening as he still has quite a bit to read, but his sense so far was that the book was looking like an unexpected pleasure with a pleasingly simplistic form, but he did add that he is finding the Creole accent to be a little irritating to read and possibly a bit overdone.  Steve may yet have the final word on whether we are dealing with Marmite or peanut butter here when he offers his final comments.

Via email we received comments from both Chris’s and Mark TH.  The Chris’s have enjoyed the sense of place, relationships between Sabine and maids, insights into ex-pat marital relationships in the 50’s and the transition out of colonialism, but maybe the book was a bit too long and left too many loose ends? Mark Th gave a pithy bit of feedback…he thought it was rubbish, dull and predictable and wishes we had chosen Sense of an Ending which he thought was “awesome”.  Overall to date the average score for the book is 6.28 pending Steve’s score.

Aside from this we drank nice beer outside on the terrace admiring the handsome views on a warm summer’s evening, a rare treat, whilst bemoaning the fact that the re-vamped H&H doesn’t sell crisps, doesn’t have glasses with handles and doesn’t give great service at the bar…but does have quite pretty waitresses apparently!

It was agreed that discussing Mark T’s book will take place in September and that Neil, Richard, Mark T and Chris B will aim to get together as a small group in August and select a separate book to discuss via email.